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 Post subject: Game crash then Helo spam
PostPosted: Sat 19 Jan 2013 10:36 
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Sergeant

Joined: Fri 26 Oct 2012 07:44
Posts: 62
Hello, I recently played two games against Vasily Krysov.

Well, this starts off with our first game. Our first game I was ahead by about 500 points then my game crashed. Here https://www.dropbox.com/s/zhm3x6bcdh819 ... 0crash.png

As you see from the time the match was up (4:18AM) to the time my game crashed (4:41AM) was about a good 20min of game play. Ok, we agreed to play again, this time I was in for a surprise. He spams 30 helos and rushes my base and wins in 2min. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =121360112

How is this even allowed especially in the final rounds of the tournament? Before I asked a game moderator about a tactic consisting of having one command vehicle and one helo to kill ONE enemy unit and wait for the 40min to run out. How come I wasn't allow to that yet spamming helos like this is allowed? Seriously, can I get a rematch? That simply isn't fair. I'm winning 20min into a game then it crashes.

It's also possible he crashed my game using cheat engine (people have done it before). I still have the .dmp file if it's needed.

Is this really what this competition is about the best spammer wins?


Last edited by dimitri18 on Sat 19 Jan 2013 11:25, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jan 2013 10:48 
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Sergeant Major of the Army

Joined: Mon 17 Sep 2012 22:00
Posts: 350
Yes.

And to be a tiny bit less laconic, I would say that it's been a while now that any idea of fair-play has flown out of the window never to be seen again. The fact that there are some quite nice prizes doesn't help one bit of course.

So what your adversary did was really perfect in the scope of winning. Morally and ethically speaking, it's a totally different story of course but pretty much irrelevant at this point.
And rushes being that easy to pull off and difficult to defend, it's only to be expected that they are (and will be) multiplying like wild rabbits.


EDIT : I understand you're angry but it's highly unlikely your opponent cheated. He was opportunistic on the rematch, yes, and you definitively unlucky for the computer crash, but that's about it.


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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jan 2013 12:14 
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Sergeant First-Class

Joined: Tue 21 Feb 2012 21:37
Posts: 137
Very unlucky about the crash, but if the deal is that whoever wins the rematch wins... then there's nothing to say. Any strategy is valid, and it's not your opponent's fault that it's so stupidly effective. This isn't a matter of fair play, but a matter of the game being flawed. Fair play would be things like, launching the game when the other person isn't ready, not letting them select the right deck, etc.


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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jan 2013 14:31 
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Sergeant First-Class
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Joined: Mon 2 Apr 2012 17:41
Posts: 101
Since you were winning the first game, what you should have done was specify that a rematch would only take place if it was then 1-0 to you and it becomes best of 3. I believe that's what Tigga did when this happened in his last game. Or, contact an Admin with the replay of the game you just played and ask for clear guidance on what should happen next. If you just said a rematch was fine with no extra conditions, sorry but that's life. The fact that you lost to a helo rush afterwards has no bearing on the fairness of this IMO.

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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jan 2013 17:54 
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Joined: Mon 20 Feb 2012 01:30
Posts: 453
iirc the rules don't even require a rematch, if you were the disconnecting party then he wins the match regardless of what the score was.

So him letting you rematch at all was a freebie


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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jan 2013 18:23 
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Command Sergeant Major

Joined: Tue 14 Feb 2012 08:33
Posts: 309
bentguru wrote:
iirc the rules don't even require a rematch, if you were the disconnecting party then he wins the match regardless of what the score was.

So him letting you rematch at all was a freebie


This

Also Vasily has used a helo rush for 50% of the tournament. It would have been prudent to assume that was going to happen. I've watched 12 helicopter rush defenses so far in this tournament... it's not impossible.

I think there is a general presumption from people that a person who rushes is somehow skill-less. I disagree. A person who rushes deploys a different set of skills from someone who doesn't. People who like to play a long tactical macro-management style game are very good at playing a game based around control and position.

A person who rushes is very good at individual unit control and crisis management.

The difference between these two players might be that a macro player prepares for every possibility and the micro player deals with every problem. You seemingly did neither.

As a final scolding remark consider this, you are one of the top 66 players in the world. Even if helicopters are imbalanced and anti-air units are poor (which they are) you're generally expected to overcome it.

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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jan 2013 19:19 
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Joined: Mon 20 Feb 2012 01:30
Posts: 453
troublmaker wrote:
...you are one of the top 66 players in the world...


He's one of the top 66 in the tournament. Him being in the top 66 overall.... not really


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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jan 2013 19:27 
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Sergeant Major of the Army

Joined: Mon 17 Sep 2012 22:00
Posts: 350
troublmaker wrote:
I think there is a general presumption from people that a person who rushes is somehow skill-less.


No.
The beef people have with rushing is that it's a technique which so simple and effective that a completely bad player can win against a good player. When DarrickS went over to the darkside he actually taught a 12-13 years old to rush. Before that he was a very mediocre player in ranked. After 2-3 days of training he managed to steamroll most of his opponents and reach League A.
In other terms, rushing imbalances the game in the sense that the result doesn't reflect the actual skill of the players.

Of course rushes are something you can counter and hence an extremely risky tactic, but as a matter of fact being able to counter both air- and land- rushes while at the same time keeping a wide array of possible strategies is something quite delicate and complicated to master (I'm using severe understatements here).


troublmaker wrote:
I disagree. A person who rushes deploys a different set of skills from someone who doesn't. People who like to play a long tactical macro-management style game are very good at playing a game based around control and position.

A person who rushes is very good at individual unit control and crisis management.


No again, you're talking about a very small subset of the rusher population.
A few people know how to rush and do that smartly, I guess the name of bentguru comes immediately to mind.
But consider that even him did stand at the brink of disaster against Tschorchiboy, which was rather the blind rusher kind.

troublmaker wrote:
As a final scolding remark consider this, you are one of the top 66 players in the world. Even if helicopters are imbalanced and anti-air units are poor (which they are) you're generally expected to overcome it.


That's a very offhand and inconsiderate remark if I might say, and quite easy to say when standing on the sidelines. Some of the very best players in the world are already out because of rushing in this WC and that doesn't mean they have suddenly become awful at playing overnight. You can't reasonably expect everyone to systematically be prepared for all kind of rushes all the times, or you're going to end up with a full scale turtling event, the only thing even worse than rushing in my humble opinion.


OP did lose his match and it's definitely his bad, but let's not rub his nose in it on top of that.


bentguru wrote:
He's one of the top 66 in the tournament. Him being in the top 66 overall.... not really


Exactly.
Let's not be naive and believe this WC actually reflects faithfully people's level and skill. Me included (and foremost if I might say).


Last edited by Grosnours on Sat 19 Jan 2013 19:29, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jan 2013 19:33 
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Warrant Officer

Joined: Mon 20 Feb 2012 01:30
Posts: 453
Grosnours wrote:
troublmaker wrote:
I think there is a general presumption from people that a person who rushes is somehow skill-less.


No.
The beef people have with rushing is that it's a technique which so simple and effective that a completely bad player can win against a good player. When DarrickS went over to the darkside he actually taught a 12-13 years old to rush. Before that he was a very mediocre player in ranked. After 2-3 days of training he managed to steamroll most of his opponents and reach League A.
In other terms, rushing imbalances the game in the sense that the result doesn't reflect the actual skill of the players.

Of course rushes are something you can counter and hence an extremely risky tactic, but as a matter of fact being able to counter both air- and land- rushes while at the same time keeping a wide array of possible strategies is something quite delicate and complicated to master (I'm using severe understatements here).
This isn't wrong, per se. I would argue that a lot of a rushes power comes from the fact that many people simply don't know how to defend against it. The principles aren't that difficult, but the metagame of W:EE has been a certain way for so long people are having trouble adapting to general anti-rush principles, the most important of which 'Do NOT Spread out until you have an idea of the enemy battle plan', most people still wont/can't do... even the better players.

troublmaker wrote:
I disagree. A person who rushes deploys a different set of skills from someone who doesn't. People who like to play a long tactical macro-management style game are very good at playing a game based around control and position.

A person who rushes is very good at individual unit control and crisis management.


No again, you're talking about a very small subset of the rusher population.
A few people know how to rush and do that smartly, I guess the name of bentguru comes immediately to mind.
But consider that even him did stand at the brink of disaster against Tschorchiboy, which was rather the blind rusher kind.
In all honesty, I had the rush crushed. The only excitement came from me being retarded and not sending the rolands with the sultan. The actual ground to ground fight was over in that point and I had won it convincingly.

troublmaker wrote:
As a final scolding remark consider this, you are one of the top 66 players in the world. Even if helicopters are imbalanced and anti-air units are poor (which they are) you're generally expected to overcome it.


That's a very offhand and inconsiderate remark if I might say, and quite easy to say when standing on the sidelines. Some of the very best players in the world are already out because of rushing in this WC and that doesn't mean they have suddenly become awful at playing overnight. You can't reasonably expect everyone to systematically be prepared for all kind of rushes all the times, or you're going to end up with a full scale turtling event, the only thing even worse than rushing in my humble opinion.


OP did lose his match and it's definitely his bad, but let's not rub his nose in it on top of that.


bentguru wrote:
He's one of the top 66 in the tournament. Him being in the top 66 overall.... not really


Exactly.
Let's not be naive and believe this WC actually reflects faithfully people's level and skill. Me included (and foremost if I might say).

.


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PostPosted: Sat 19 Jan 2013 20:11 
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Sergeant First-Class

Joined: Fri 7 Sep 2012 08:27
Posts: 113
Location: Belgrade,Serbia
Helicopter all in is allowed in this game,by the way if you want to play without worrying of helicopter rush(as it has to happen to you at least once,I was lucky and still haven't faced any) try first to figure out who is your enemy,watch his replays,etc...I have seen his replay against spawnfarkal(spawnfarkal rushed also in some of his games) where he went helicopter all in,therefore, I must say that all options must be on the table when you know your enemy...And even if you have never seen him rushing,he might be just doing that in order to surprise you...


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