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 Post subject: Re: Mi-2US for PACT.
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012 19:21 
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DiabloTigerSix wrote:
Hegemon wrote:
Quote:
It would be the most useless heli of all times.

Heli for PACT for 20-25 points armed with autocannon. What is wrong with that?

;) Mirror balancing...

*puts glasses on*

8-) ... is wrong

But if we were to mirror balance helicopters completely, then NATO players would sure want some 122mm rockets and some gunship equipped with 2.6k ATGM's for under 100 points.

Yea, sure, sure.... it's about what it is really worth... not about mirror balancing. If you want to Polish Mi2 to cost 15 and 20 points... *puts glasses on* 8-)... I am completely fine with it :lol:

Damn, it could be finally useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Mi-2US for PACT.
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012 19:28 
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REDDQ wrote:
DiabloTigerSix wrote:
;) Mirror balancing...

*puts glasses on*

8-) ... is wrong

But if we were to mirror balance helicopters completely, then NATO players would sure want some 122mm rockets and some gunship equipped with 2.6k ATGM's for under 100 points.

Yea, sure, sure.... it's about what it is really worth... not about mirror balancing. If you want to Polish Mi2 to cost 15 and 20 points... *puts glasses on* 8-)... I am completely fine with it :lol:

Damn, it could be finally useful.

For the sake of asymetric balance, don't you think that PACT is supposed to have some bad deals in some areas, just as NATO is supposed to have some bad deals in others?

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 Post subject: Re: Mi-2US for PACT.
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012 19:29 
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Hegemon wrote:
You just don't have arguments left.

No. As I clearly pointed out, I am not going to argue the chopper vs recon chopper issue. Bit of a difference there.

Hegemon wrote:
Ok, I now see your point. You don't want changes...

Hegemon wrote:
This was basic armed version, but it wasn't reconnaissance helicopter at all.

And you want change because you're hung-up on lettering...this isn't real life, it's a game. Get over it. Things are done for balance sometimes...


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 Post subject: Re: Mi-2US for PACT.
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012 19:45 
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DiabloTigerSix wrote:
REDDQ wrote:
DiabloTigerSix wrote:
;) Mirror balancing...

*puts glasses on*

8-) ... is wrong

But if we were to mirror balance helicopters completely, then NATO players would sure want some 122mm rockets and some gunship equipped with 2.6k ATGM's for under 100 points.

Yea, sure, sure.... it's about what it is really worth... not about mirror balancing. If you want to Polish Mi2 to cost 15 and 20 points... *puts glasses on* 8-)... I am completely fine with it :lol:

Damn, it could be finally useful.

For the sake of asymetric balance, don't you think that PACT is supposed to have some bad deals in some areas, just as NATO is supposed to have some bad deals in others?

What are the bad deals in NATO just curious


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 Post subject: Re: Mi-2US for PACT.
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012 20:14 
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derpcannon BG wrote:
DiabloTigerSix wrote:
For the sake of asymetric balance, don't you think that PACT is supposed to have some bad deals in some areas, just as NATO is supposed to have some bad deals in others?

What are the bad deals in NATO just curious

+1 to that

Logistics: NATO has medium supply chopper and well armored command vehicles. Pact's Mi26 is from the other hand a "very big" target, NATO's mortars say "Hi!".
Recon: Very fast Luchs with auto-canon and very good optics, two recon choppers smaller in size than Mi9 but with exceptional optics, also some well armed.
Infantry: NATO has very universal infantry, in fact several kinds of them, availability and squad size above Pact. Also very nice transports with auto-canon.
Tanks: Perfect Leos... yeap... I know Pact has T-80U and to avoid long conversation on that subject... let say no one has a bad deal here.
Support: Auf1 apparently as good as DANA. Lack of very fragile but powerful heavy artillery, but MRLS not so much lagging behind. Also mortars with big range, way better than supply-heavy Buratino. Actually not bad AA, Only OSA is giving Pact some credit. Flakpanzers way better than ridiculously nerfed Shilkas.
Vehicles: Guess what? Mortars again! ATGMs more accurate than Pacts, price about the same.
Helicopter: Do I really need to point it out??? Massive advantage for NATO.

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 Post subject: Re: Mi-2US for PACT.
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012 21:04 
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REDDQ wrote:
derpcannon BG wrote:
DiabloTigerSix wrote:
For the sake of asymetric balance, don't you think that PACT is supposed to have some bad deals in some areas, just as NATO is supposed to have some bad deals in others?

What are the bad deals in NATO just curious

+1 to that

Logistics: NATO has medium supply chopper and well armored command vehicles. Pact's Mi26 is from the other hand a "very big" target, NATO's mortars say "Hi!".
Recon: Very fast Luchs with auto-canon and very good optics, two recon choppers smaller in size than Mi9 but with exceptional optics, also some well armed.
Infantry: NATO has very universal infantry, in fact several kinds of them, availability and squad size above Pact. Also very nice transports with auto-canon.
Tanks: Perfect Leos... yeap... I know Pact has T-80U and to avoid long conversation on that subject... let say no one has a bad deal here.
Support: Auf1 apparently as good as DANA. Lack of very fragile but powerful heavy artillery, but MRLS not so much lagging behind. Also mortars with big range, way better than supply-heavy Buratino. Actually not bad AA, Only OSA is giving Pact some credit. Flakpanzers way better than ridiculously nerfed Shilkas.
Vehicles: Guess what? Mortars again! ATGMs more accurate than Pacts, price about the same.
Helicopter: Do I really need to point it out??? Massive advantage for NATO.


NATO only loses to pact in heavy artillery and flamethrower vehicles, in other categories they are tied/or NATO is superior. Pretty much NATO units are represented correctly in game with almost realistic values etc. while Pact has some units represented wrong for sake of balance (base T-55/T-62 having no stabiliser, soviet stabilisers in general are crap compared to NATO ones, little ATGM capacity on tanks, wrong vehicle sizes, average gun accuracy... there are more than that.)

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 Post subject: Re: Mi-2US for PACT.
PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2012 21:08 
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OpusTheFowl wrote:
And you want change because you're hung-up on lettering...this isn't real life, it's a game. Get over it. Things are done for balance sometimes...

Because this would be so OP unit :roll:
Yes I admit, I noticed it with lettering, but after looking into it while writing answers to your posts I am sure that it would be beneficial for GAMEPLAY as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Mi-2US for PACT.
PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2012 00:54 
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If you look around, it's easy to find bad deals. I thought the Shturm was cool, then I realized most of the ATGM tanks in my Russkie deck had the same range, and stats I like more (10 AP & Acc > 11 AP & 9 Acc imo).

OpusTheFowl wrote:
Hegemon wrote:
You just don't have arguments left.

No. As I clearly pointed out, I am not going to argue the chopper vs recon chopper issue. Bit of a difference there.

Hegemon wrote:
Ok, I now see your point. You don't want changes...

Hegemon wrote:
This was basic armed version, but it wasn't reconnaissance helicopter at all.

And you want change because you're hung-up on lettering...this isn't real life, it's a game. Get over it. Things are done for balance sometimes...


But, considering the basis of his suggestion was to entirely change classification of the helicopter, I think comparing it against the class it would be entered into is how you would be doing it; those responses don't seem fair, logical, or that they really even considered the matter before being shot into the air.

If this was replicating real life, we'd have Bradleys sniping out T-XX's at three kilometers, NATO's heavy tanks engaging at four kilometers out, tanks taking vast amounts of fire without being scratched, and nearly all of the modern tanks would have huge amounts of trouble even denting each other's armor, but it's not. Those numbers and letters are attached to a entity which resembles whatever it denotes, and for the most part, Wargame attempts to replicate its role in real life within the game mechanics; except, in this case, it really doesn't.

Its role probably has more to do with the single player campaign and requiring the available option of a reconnaissance chopper to fit the time period, rather than anything that actually has to do with real life, or game mechanics, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Mi-2US for PACT.
PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2012 03:14 
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Quote:
If this was replicating real life, we'd have Bradleys sniping out T-XX's at three kilometers, NATO's heavy tanks engaging at four kilometers out, tanks taking vast amounts of fire without being scratched, and nearly all of the modern tanks would have huge amounts of trouble even denting each other's armor, but it's not. Those numbers and letters are attached to a entity which resembles whatever it denotes, and for the most part, Wargame attempts to replicate its role in real life within the game mechanics; except, in this case, it really doesn't.


The conditions in Europe (terrain, weather, etc) and different enemy (not hopelessly incompetent Iraqis) would preclude a replication of Desert Storm-type results.

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 Post subject: Re: Mi-2US for PACT.
PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2012 04:36 
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Hegemon wrote:
Yes I admit, I noticed it with lettering, but after looking into it while writing answers to your posts I am sure that it would be beneficial for GAMEPLAY as well.


I look at WEE (and most games) strictly from a numbers point of view and a class point of view if the game has them. If I were to look at it your way I would probably agree with you but as this is not a sim I can't do that. Why there are choppers in LOG, REC and HELO is bizarre to me too as it begs the question, why is the ASU85 a support vehicle? Why doesn't POL have a Mi2 Recon of it's own? The list goes on...but the answer is always balance...Except for the ASU85...no idea about that one...

Cheers Hegemon.


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