Oh I agree my VTS1s can handle their own, I'm just saying that they aren't specifically better then a lot of things in their relative price range, just worth a bit more then 20 points, more like 25 or even 30 if you push it. I don't generally bring more then 12 at one time though (unless they build up over the course of a game), so I can see what your saying that en mass, they are pretty unstoppable.

I think the best way to learn how to counter them though is just using them. I have a couple ideas that might work .

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And I bet the Gepards and Luchs contributed far more to killing the infantry than everything else put together. In my experience it's possible to reach enemy tanks with infantry if you use enough of them and arre smart. In my experience it's possible to do anything if you are smarter than your opponent.

Problem with VT1 in particular seems quite simple to me: they have too much armour for their cost (and speed, and too good a gun, etc, but mostly their armour).

Honestly, the whole problem with rushes and unit spamming aside (which is not the Marder VTS1's fault particularly), the thing just has the stats of a 30 point unit.

droppin the side side armor to 1 might help making it easier to handle as it wil be more vulnerable to rockets and arty. Maybe lower speed. Or remove some hp ?

But yeah compre them to the Aml 90. for 5 pts more you jump from 1/0/0/0 to 2/1/1/1, plus you no longer use HEAT rounds.

nyonewho sid 12 innf win vs 20 marders, i can't help but say WTF ?

Unless i missed something the marders will pick off infantry and stun them while they approach, not to mention he can fire then fall back if the infantry really gets too close. 70km/h
Unless the guy is an idiot or is distracted your infantry wont make it .

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Boogie Van on balance talk

brogan, any time you feel like trying to beat my VTS1 attack just let me know. I have no idea whatsoever what you're basing your ideas on, but they're just flat wrong. There really is no other way to say it.

Save replay when it goes down, please.

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I think I may have to reverse my position that they need a nerf.

After discovering the vet-stab bug yesterday I've been playing with no vet VTS1s so I can get a clearer picture of how strong the unit actually is. And the answer I'm coming up with is not really. It's still as hard to kill as ever, but without the vet exploit it really can't hit things reliably while moving. Even if it's within infantry-AT range it still struggles.

The lack of a stabilizer just really limits its effectiveness in a fast-attack role. Every game so far they've been pretty underwhelming, and nothing even close to how good they are with vet. I had a game vs a 1775 PACT player who dug in and just crushed my assault with no problems whatsoever, the VTS1s were just useless because they couldn't hit from far off, basic infantry prevented them from closing in, and my heavier units who could hit stuff were focus fired down.

Honestly, I might hold off on making any changes to specific units until vet is fixed. It's just way too hard to tell how good units actually are when vet is distorting everything so much.

edit: So yeah, I'm now convinced that absolutely no changes should be made to unit balance while this bug exists.

After discovering that it was there (and realizing that I had been semi-intentionally using the exploit in every VTS1 rush build I used) I've been experimenting with 0vet VTS1s and other cheap units a lot and have decided that it's impossible to really gauge how good the units are with this bug muddling the picture.

0vet VTS1s are pretty worthless for example, moving or otherwise, but without this bug I could still bring their accuracy up a bit with vet 1 and hit stuff at range while stopped theoretically. This *could* make them still pretty strong, but I just can't tell with this exploit currently working. The exact same principle applies to virtually every cheap unit spam. I'd wager a guess that most people doing cheap unit spams were relying on this exploit to be effective without knowing what was actually causing them to win.

It's not the cheap units, or the fact that you can get loads of them, it's the fact that with cheap vet you can give all of them top line MBT accuracy at any range while moving. I'm 90% sure that why cheap unit spam has been so strong so far, not due to the units themselves. It's just so unbelievably broken right now. I really don't see any point in playing until it's fixed.

Bounding overwatch is the answer for all units that do not have stabilizers. They are essentially half as fast on the assault but the effective firepower is vastly increased.

Except that, again, without vet the most cheap units can't hit anything at range, stopped or otherwise.

But once you apply vet, you immediately break the game.

It needs to be fixed before anything else is changed.