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 Post subject: Re: A10 vs. Su-25
PostPosted: Mon 9 Jul 2012 23:57 
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Joined: Mon 9 Jul 2012 01:46
Posts: 1249
ikalugin wrote:

So we compare Afghanistan today with Central front in the 80s? Do I sense a logical mistake in your reasoning?

Ok, which UAV systems did NATO have in the 80s?

Soviets had:
Tupolev Tu-141
(1973-1989)
Tupolev Tu-143
(1973-1989)
Yakovlev Pchela
(it had TV camera for arty targeting)


NATO had the:
Northrop AQM-35
ADM-20 Quail
Ryan Model 147
Lockheed D-21
AQM-91 Firefly
Boeing YQM-94
BAE SkyEye
Ryan YQM-98
BQM-147 Dragon
AAI RQ-2 Pioneer
General Atomics GNAT
Canadair CL-89
Canadair CL-227 Sentinel
HAI Pegasus
Meggitt Banshee
Gyrodyne QH-50 DASH (1960s drone anti-submarine helicopter)
BQM-74 Chukar
Lockheed MQM-105 Aquila
:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: A10 vs. Su-25
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 00:02 
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Joined: Sun 6 Nov 2011 00:00
Posts: 6759
Killertomato wrote:
ikalugin wrote:

So we compare Afghanistan today with Central front in the 80s? Do I sense a logical mistake in your reasoning?

Ok, which UAV systems did NATO have in the 80s?

Soviets had:
Tupolev Tu-141
(1973-1989)
Tupolev Tu-143
(1973-1989)
Yakovlev Pchela
(it had TV camera for arty targeting)


NATO had the:
Northrop AQM-35
ADM-20 Quail
Ryan Model 147
Lockheed D-21
AQM-91 Firefly
Boeing YQM-94
BAE SkyEye
Ryan YQM-98
BQM-147 Dragon
AAI RQ-2 Pioneer
General Atomics GNAT
Canadair CL-89
Canadair CL-227 Sentinel
HAI Pegasus
Meggitt Banshee
Gyrodyne QH-50 DASH (1960s drone anti-submarine helicopter)
BQM-74 Chukar
Lockheed MQM-105 Aquila
:lol:

Sure, using WiKi is fun, but I would show you how operational those were prior to 1985 or if they were relevant, starting through the bottom. I would edit this post to add each one.

Lockheed MQM-105 Aquila
1985 still did not reach specification, is within the testing still in 1985. Canceled in 1987.
BQM-74 Chukar
Target drone.
Gyrodyne QH-50 DASH
ASW drone or target tug, irrelevant to the Central theater.
Meggitt Banshee
Target drone, made into rec. version only in 2001. Irrelevant.
HAI Pegasus
Operational only by 2003, subsonic, 10 units produced.
General Atomics GNAT
Desighned in late 80s, irrelevant.
AAI RQ-2 Pioneer
Deployed in 1986, irrelevant.
BQM-147 Dragon
Post 1986, irrelevant.
Ryan YQM-98
Never produced.
Boeing YQM-94
Never produced.
AQM-91 Firefly
Strategic drone, mothballed prior to 1975, irrelevant.
Lockheed D-21
Canceled in 1971, strategic drone, irrelevant.
Ryan Model 147
Strategic drone, canceled in early 1975, irrelevant.
ADM-20 Quail
Decoy missile.
Northrop AQM-35
Target drone.

This is after quick (and incomplete) WiKi check). Rest (3 I think) were tactical systems, without jamm resistant datalinks and with subsonic speeds, makining them incomparable to the long range supersonic soviet models.
It just shows that copy-paste of names lists from WiKi without reading into them is a bad thing.

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Last edited by ikalugin on Tue 10 Jul 2012 00:22, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 vs. Su-25
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 00:06 
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Master Sergeant

Joined: Fri 11 May 2012 07:23
Posts: 160
Location: Cold Lake Alberta Canada
IR0NMIKE 6 wrote:
jjnd wrote:
numbering about 100,000 soldiers. The US ALONE has at LEAST 100,000 troops PLUS the tens of thousands


ROFL that number is like 5 times lower. But hey believe what you want. What good are facts anyway - right?


Anyway the A-10 is the undisputed tank-killing CAS aircraft. That's what it does. need to destroy enemy armor/vehicles? Call in your local A-10 pilots.

Really? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/world ... ml?_r=1&hp
"Mr. Obama announced plans to withdraw 10,000 troops from Afghanistan by the end of this year. The remaining 20,000 troops from the 2009 “surge” of forces would leave by next summer, amounting to about a third of the 100,000 troops now in the country"
Now, yes troop numbers have dropped NOW but during the "surge" there were at least 100000 US troops in country. Oh, and have you been there yourself to see? Cause i sure have.
And this is from the New York times. How mainstream can you get? And that is JUST US numbers, NOT allied numbers. Next fact in dispute? Are you saying that the technology available now was available by the USSR in the 70s/80s in any number?


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 Post subject: Re: A10 vs. Su-25
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 00:16 
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Colonel

Joined: Thu 17 Nov 2011 01:53
Posts: 2865
ikalugin wrote:

So we compare Afghanistan today with Central front in the 80s? Do I sense a logical mistake in your reasoning?

Ok, which UAV systems did NATO have in the 80s?

Soviets had:
Tupolev Tu-141
(1973-1989)
Tupolev Tu-143
(1973-1989)
Yakovlev Pchela
(it had TV camera for arty targeting)


Why do you arbitrarily choose 1985 as the cut off date? Pretty sure the cold war lasted quite a bit longer.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 vs. Su-25
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 00:22 
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Joined: Sun 6 Nov 2011 00:00
Posts: 6759
Guggy wrote:
ikalugin wrote:

So we compare Afghanistan today with Central front in the 80s? Do I sense a logical mistake in your reasoning?

Ok, which UAV systems did NATO have in the 80s?

Soviets had:
Tupolev Tu-141
(1973-1989)
Tupolev Tu-143
(1973-1989)
Yakovlev Pchela
(it had TV camera for arty targeting)


Why do you arbitrarily choose 1985 as the cut off date? Pretty sure the cold war lasted quite a bit longer.

Because this is the game setting.

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We need more missilez code for the missilez god.
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 Post subject: Re: A10 vs. Su-25
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 00:24 
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Colonel

Joined: Thu 17 Nov 2011 01:53
Posts: 2865
I wasnt aware that was the case. Do you say so because the last campaign takes place in 1985? I consider the game setting to be the entire breadth of the Cold War personally.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 vs. Su-25
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 00:28 
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Joined: Sun 6 Nov 2011 00:00
Posts: 6759
Guggy wrote:
I wasnt aware that was the case. Do you say so because the last campaign takes place in 1985? I consider the game setting to be the entire breadth of the Cold War personally.

It is officially so (1975-1985). However it does use some units as "prototype" ones, which were never fielded within the time line (Mi28 and many others).

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 Post subject: Re: A10 vs. Su-25
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 00:34 
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Joined: Thu 17 Nov 2011 01:53
Posts: 2865
Ah, fair enough! Were the Soviet drones meant to be reusable? The Wiki description makes them sound more like a camera-equipped cruise missile.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 vs. Su-25
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 00:37 
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Joined: Sun 6 Nov 2011 00:00
Posts: 6759
Guggy wrote:
Ah, fair enough! Were the Soviet drones meant to be reusable? The Wiki description makes them sound more like a camera-equipped cruise missile.

It lands on parashutes, so to an extend yes.

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We need more missilez code for the missilez god.
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 Post subject: Re: A10 vs. Su-25
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 01:01 
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Lieutenant

Joined: Mon 9 Jul 2012 01:46
Posts: 1249
ikalugin wrote:

This is after quick (and incomplete) WiKi check). Rest (3 I think) were tactical systems, without jamm resistant datalinks and with subsonic speeds, makining them incomparable to the long range supersonic soviet models.
It just shows that copy-paste of names lists from WiKi without reading into them is a bad thing.


You didn't say anything about a cutoff date, you didn't say anything about the central theater, you discount a whole bunch of the target drones that had secondary reconnaissance functions like the Chukar (the recon version of which was BTW built in similar numbers to the Soviet TU-141), the model 147 was certainly still in service in the '80s (it was used in Iraq in 2003), the D-21 you dismiss for being strategic is similar to the TU-123 (which is irrelevant by your standards anyway since it was retired in 1979), the Pegasus first flew in 1982, and at least as many recon Quails were built as TU-141s.

Hell, you didn't even use the word "reconnaissance" in the first place, much less supersonic or jam-resistant (how the TU-123 with a film camera is jam-resistant, I don't know). The Pchela, BTW, is most decidedly a 1990s project.

Only one of the drones you listed actually meets all of your specs, and the Model 147 could do everything it could 9 years before it was introduced :lol: .


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