As I said before, this thing would be a sh** in reality, so the dev have make it like it was in real life. No wonder why it was never fielded. Or Eugen eliminate it totally or they nerf it. There is no other way. Before someone accuse me of partiality, I actually think that T-34 and T-55 are too effective against high end units. It must be fixed too.

This. I think that as a design element, there was too much fear of the super expensive tanks steamrolling. Even without the spammy units, this simply doesnt happen. Ever. The spammy units, coupled with the morale system in its current state, just leads to absurdity like this which was brought to light.



The design intention to keep the super cheap units viable vs the big leaguers, coupled with the ridiculous accuracy system, just breaks things. I agree with you that the T34 and 55 are too much, its just that the Marder pretty much embodies this issue as a whole.

Its something that needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP, because its gotten quite ridiculous. This calls for a big Tigga-esque topic with suggestions

_________________

tested the vtsi rush tactics after watching a few replays now a couple of times. Works flawless. Is ruining my fun though.

Given some aa/autocannon support those marders just level everything, with a minimum amount of effort.

Even if I lost all or most rushing troops: the inflicted damage was equal or higher to the losses and most of all enemy commd vec and the base were destroyed. Even if a bulk of enemy forces was still intact, I won the game in the long run.

It's right it's pretty hard to lose this way. And I'm pretty sure one might do a mimic of this tactic using cheap WP units. (maybe to a lesser degree of effectivity, though)

Regarding these factors I'd suggest to look into adjusting numbers of initially deployable vehicles enforcing players to deploy a balanced deck. (Or introducing a more intense crowd-control via mass stun/panic, although this could also hinder the one being rushed)

It's just my opinion, everyone might play out his preferred tactics. But I suppose it might not be to funny for newbies to be rushed all the time. Games on giant maps, that are over after 5 min? Hm.

Just teaches them to play it in this particular way. Ruining concepts of slower, more reluctant and balanced tactics and thereby some beloved aspects of the game.

cheers

_________________
please nerf stone!! It is massively overpowered! And completely out of balance!

paper is fine.

Yours, scissors.

Well I can compile all the suggestions I feel are good:

1) Experiement with lowering the 5% cap on accuracy on "main gun" type weapons. Potentially to 0%. This wouldn't affect big tanks/vehicles that fire few shots nearly as much as small tanks/vehicles that fire many shots. You have to be careful not to overly nerf machine guns or autocannons like this as the same change applied to them might skew things a lot.
2) Morale penalty for people dying around you. The problem is that this would probably have to come with a morale boost overall... though I'm not sure people would mind that. Would be tricky to balance.
3) Increase chance of criticial when AP is much larger than armour. One of my issues with the VTS1 is that it can live through most pact ATGM hits with 1 hp left. Massively better than the Zhalo which is killed by any ATGM hit. This would make large AP units much more viable against low armour targets.
4) Limit availablity of prototype units a bit more. This is a little more general, but would hit the VTS1, the Zhalo and a few other units that are a bit unique and can cause complete carnage in the right situation. The MBT-70 and the BMP 685 for example. I think it'd mainly hit the Zhalo and the VTS1 though.
5) (Marder series only) Increase the price of the Marder 1 and the VTS1 by 5. Don't really mind the Marder 1Ax right now, but the VTS1 and 1 are both underpriced for their armour. Alternatively for the VTS1 you could hit it with some reloading while moving nerf due to the external cannon.
6) Make reversing a bit easier in the interface. Ctrl-click, or increase the distance behind I can click without the unit turning.

I think a combination of 1) and 3) are fairly easy to implement and both would shift the balance more toward higher AP, higher armour units being effective. Lighter units would still have a place, but that place would be either much closer up where armour is less important, or sitting on the flanks sniping away at heavier units' sides and rears while having the speed to retreat if things get hot. Lighter units would keep their ability to push back heavier units through weight of numbers, they just would just now have to pick between inflicting no damage on on the move while taking hits and stopping to take shots, slowing their advance.

EDIT: Just for clarification I'm not sure I'd want either 1) or 3) to be implemented too strongly. Maybe drop it to 2-3% for 1), and only increase damage with strong AP vs armour a little as well. An alternative to 3) might be to add a little bit of a random element to damage other than criticals. An AP 10 ATGM hitting armour 2 currently always does 9 damage, or rarely 18 (I think). More interesting would be to have it do between 7 and 11, with the same chance of doubling up.

After reading this thread, I've tried VTSI's and fought VTSI's.

It isn't just rushes. I try to hang my VTSI's back for a flank/distraction if my primary line falters...but I can afford ALL of the VTSI's, and still have points for a normal force... I tend to use them late game to make up for lost armor.

Example... 3 Mile Island the other day. 4v4, all 4 enemy went my side. Recon saw the hoard of everything known to god coming our way (not a joke...it was horrifying...) - my partner began falling back under massive fire as the enemy came out of the wood works. Pushed back to our spawn, my handful of ATGMs and Pattons began fighting back...

Then I unleashed them. They came like riders from hell, probably shouting in angry German too. They tore into the enemy line like a hurricane of pure, endless hatred. The enemy's armor in the spot I penetrated fell back under fire, before being partially obliterated. I spread my units out, split them up and clicked each VTSI individually. They blossomed into the enemy lines every where way, starting concentrated then spreading out everywhere. I poked a big hole into his lines, killed a tos-1 and a cmd... and then they died. Because the enemy pinched behind them.

The attack bought us points and time to bring in more armor, which was quickly laid to waste. The enemy won 3k points over us in the end. VTSI assaults are mid-late balanced... early on rushes only do so good because you get caught off foot....

Before people go, "Oh well you should fight them!" I have.

WP map, I had a massive armor division moving around, had just taken the enemy hill. When here they come... all the VTSI's and even some Pattons! I maneuvered around them and had them fired at from all sides, they were swiftly damaged - and fell back under fire. This + the prior game made me realize...

How to stop VTSI rushes
OUT MANEUVER THEM AND HIT THEIR FLANK'S REAR!
I almost always have my tanks in groups of 2, sometimes individual. I spread my tanks out far enough that only non-corrected rockets can hit them at once. Any VTSI or similar rush tends to be focused on one area. Focus of units and fire is their 'strength' - so you see them coming with recon...maneuver a little better if you need to...they slam into part of your line....wrap your other units into their side/flank/drive past them. Give them a nice bear hug. Surround them.

It's worked for me in several games so far...

_________________

Vietnam & 1975 - Player List & Deck Advice

Have you got a replay?

I do for two games. I'm @ work but will upload them when home.

_________________

Vietnam & 1975 - Player List & Deck Advice

Thanks!

Few problems with that:

1. They are faster then nearly anything that is going to be capable of surrounding them including most ATGM jeeps.

2. Shooting them in the side is the same as shooting them in the front.

3. A shitty VTSI rush is the same as any shitty rush, they neglect proper recon and AA. A competent rusher will see your flank and meet you there, likely with more units then your separated army can handle. Systematic destruction the same way as group destruction.

_________________

The MBTs are hugely underpowered compared to all the cheap units with 90-100mm canons, The marder VTSi is just the worst one at the moment. The extra accuracy and AP on the MBTs barely counts for anything because the cheap units can get accuracy with their inexpensive vet costs and AP can be overcome by just driving closer.

The way the heavy MBTs perform at the moment you could probably half their price and many players would still build the cheap 15-30 point units instead.