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 Post subject: Re: Nato Tanks
PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug 2012 09:38 
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Max_Damage wrote:
If you ask a tanker what would he prefer: t55, t62, t72, t80 or t90 he would without a doubt say t80. Its a fluent tank: turbines allow for a smooth ride and more accuracy on the move, more fuel economy, speed, acceleration, better maneuverability and turning etc etc. Its called a flying tank for a reason: the acceleration allows to dodge or deflect incoming rounds jumping to the side all thx to the engine. Also the sound is not as loud. The modern Russia is behind the ancient USSR in many ways. Maybe thats why turbines for tanks arent produced but without a doubt they rule. USSR could produce first turbine tank - Russia cant. USSR could launch space drones - Russia cant ect. It probably has to do with it. T80 U M1 is the best tank ever. USSR was best at tanks stereotypically its because of quantity to put it simple. But in fact its exactly because of the quality of the takns such as t64 and t80 which for the first time could easily defeat much much heavier opposition.

I would prefer T64 (which is not in the list for some reason).

- Turbines to not affect fluent movement and accuracy on the move, chassis does. T80 chassis was very expensive, when compared to T64 and T72 chassis.

- Speed/Aceleration, turning and manueverability is provided by HP/mass ratio and other such characteristics (including chassis and transmition). With 6TD around turbine does not have any real advantages here.

- Fuel economy is much worse for turbine engines, only on T80U it was fixed but by using an APU to reduce the use of engine while idle. Diezel has much better fuel economy.

T80UM1 lacked the welded turret, T84 is better here by a large margine.

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 Post subject: Re: Nato Tanks
PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug 2012 10:43 
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Turbines arent better or worse, they are different. But they dont add anything that justifies the fuel consumption or the exhausted heat (say hello to IR signature).
Also how turbines help in deflecting incoming rounds slips me, maybe Max-Damage can enlighten us any further. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Nato Tanks
PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug 2012 10:47 
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Misfit wrote:
Also how turbines help in deflecting incoming rounds slips me, maybe Max-Damage can enlighten us any further. :lol:

Well if you are laughing then i guess you ll have to figure it out yourself :P. If you can :).

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 Post subject: Re: Nato Tanks
PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug 2012 11:57 
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Max_Damage wrote:
Misfit wrote:
Also how turbines help in deflecting incoming rounds slips me, maybe Max-Damage can enlighten us any further. :lol:

Well if you are laughing then i guess you ll have to figure it out yourself :P. If you can :).


As soon as im convinced that turbines are fuel efficient.

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 Post subject: Re: Nato Tanks
PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug 2012 18:10 
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Turbines happen to be VERY inefficient. The Abrams, for example, needs 10 Gallons of fuel just to start, and it averages 1.67 Gallons per mile cross-country.

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 Post subject: Re: Nato Tanks
PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug 2012 19:36 
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ikalugin wrote:
T80UM1 lacked the welded turret, T84 is better here by a large margine.

What about t90ms "tagil"?

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 Post subject: Re: Nato Tanks
PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug 2012 19:41 
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Max_Damage wrote:
ikalugin wrote:
T80UM1 lacked the welded turret, T84 is better here by a large margine.

What about t90ms "tagil"?

I don't like it due to the ERA type used, the aiming equipment, the rooftop issue.\

TBH a T80U with new Omsk turret and Kaktus armor, 6TD would have been good.

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 Post subject: Re: Nato Tanks
PostPosted: Mon 3 Sep 2012 10:55 
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ikalugin wrote:
I would prefer T64 (which is not in the list for some reason).


Why not the T-80UD? The armor of the final Soviet T-64B variants wasn't as good the T-72B and T-80U.


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 Post subject: Re: Nato Tanks
PostPosted: Mon 3 Sep 2012 14:17 
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In regards to autoloaders, if anyone's interested here's a video on how the look and work in various tanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IjgndIFhgU&list=FLUbMa9kEYoLP3_Zlc2nzVPA&index=2&feature=plpp_video

T-80 Autoloader: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSzh2Ot2niY&list=FLUbMa9kEYoLP3_Zlc2nzVPA&index=1&feature=plpp_video

M8AGS video which actually shows the autoloader: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yqxr3tqtog&list=FLUbMa9kEYoLP3_Zlc2nzVPA&index=4&feature=plpp_video

T-64 tank firing from the inside: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4B4Yd6q-zgurl

T-72B inside with autoloader working: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm0YsjGZKKs&feature=related

For Reference, M1's with their human loaders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns5NJVa_XKo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpOv50f3nN8&feature=related


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 Post subject: Re: Nato Tanks
PostPosted: Mon 3 Sep 2012 17:26 
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Max_Damage wrote:
If you ask a tanker what would he prefer: t55, t62, t72, t80 or t90 he would without a doubt say t80. Its a fluent tank: turbines allow for a smooth ride and more accuracy on the move, more fuel economy, speed, acceleration, better maneuverability and turning etc etc. Its called a flying tank for a reason: the acceleration allows to dodge or deflect incoming rounds jumping to the side all thx to the engine. Also the sound is not as loud. The modern Russia is behind the ancient USSR in many ways. Maybe thats why turbines for tanks arent produced but without a doubt they rule. USSR could produce first turbine tank - Russia cant. USSR could launch space drones - Russia cant ect. It probably has to do with it. T80 U M1 is the best tank ever. USSR was best at tanks stereotypically its because of quantity to put it simple. But in fact its exactly because of the quality of the takns such as t64 and t80 which for the first time could easily defeat much much heavier opposition.


The T-80 was bunged for a variety of reasons:

the factory that makes them is in now modern day Ukraine meaning that licensing to make them would be though the roof.

The Soviets did not have a very good time using T-80's in the wars they we're introduced, although this was a more lack-of-training then bad design, it did stick on with the Soviet commanders

Turbines are horribly expensive, expensive to make, expensive to maintain, expensive to run. Russia does not have the budget that it used to (It's not even in the top 10 for military spending anymore), and simple diesel engines are just so much easier.

and probably more but that's all I can think of right now.



Now back on topic! auto loaders have a few advantages:

You require less crew members, meaning less salary needed and more trained members for tanks!

an auto loader is much more consistent, only a highly trained crew member can outperform an autoloader, and even then factors such as fatigue, injures (such as battle injuries, RSI, or sickness) and human mistakes meant that manual loaders struggle to find a consistent rate in which to beat auto loaders.

Less crew members meant a smaller tank, and a smaller tank use less fuel and we're harder to hit!

There we're disadvantages:

cheap auto loaders required you to move (such as the ones found on early models and cheap export T-72s) your gun in order for them to work, meaning that you had to re-align your cross hairs after every shot you took. this is probably why early models of Soviet tanks have such bad accuracy in Wargame. later models did address this though!


Autoloaders (at least early versions) were more vulnerable to enemy fire due to the fact that they had to convey shells from the hull to the cannon, meaning a direct hit there could cause a catastrophic pre-detination. Early Chinese tanks we're the greatest offenders with one model (I think it's wither the type 59 or type 62) actually stored all the shells in the cannon, making them much faster to reload and less prone to jamming, but became extremely vulnerable as any shell or missile that hit the cannon would cause a devastating cook off!

So there are advantages and disadvantages, each country has their own reason for their choices and they are usually completely just with nether side being wrong. It's really up to the individual to decide whether or not the pros outweigh the cons.


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