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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012 16:43 
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ajac wrote:
I wonder what the chances that WP would have airsuppority. I am thinking low. NATO forces are trained better better aircraft and larger number of better aircraft. Granted the su-27 and mig 29 are awesome but going up against the large number of nato aircraft would make ait an interesting battle. Now I want to play a game that throws WP and NATO airforces together. Who would win? Id love to see some ideas on this.

NATO pilots had similar amount of useful training, as WP pilots had their training facilities nearby to their airfields.

WP had comparable aircraft for their role - MiG23MLD is comparable to F15C on the short range operations, Su27S/MiG29A in their 1985/1987 vintage were vastly superior to the F15C as they had better weapons (R73), better sensors (IRST), better avionics (helmet mounted sights, infra flight network centric datalink). Hence NATO did not have an advantage in equipment.

If we look into the ground attack aircraft NATO has not technological advantage here, with MiG27K and Su17M3 aircraft, they both were capable of using a variety of PGM type weapons.

They were also vastly outnumbered by the WP aircraft - one of the reasons why USA would strive for F15C+AMRAAM system, stealth force multiplier, but none were fielded in the time period.

In addition to this WP had a massive advantage in the anti air systems until the 1987, as they have had large amounts of modern, mobile systems such as Buk, and the advantage on the lower level is even larger.
Also WP had more of TBM type weapons, which NATO had no defense against. Those would have been used on airfields and other such important targets as part of the combined arms anti air operation.

Thus, especially with WP first strike up to 1987 WP would be capable of at-least denying the air to the NATO if not decisively taking control of it.

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Last edited by ikalugin on Sat 26 May 2012 16:47, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012 16:44 
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Guggy wrote:
just ignore ikalugin's posts. I beg you.

Do you have valid arguments on the matter?

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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012 16:45 
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Joined: Thu 17 Nov 2011 01:53
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ikalugin wrote:
Guggy wrote:
just ignore ikalugin's posts. I beg you.

Do you have valid arguments on the matter?


Do you?


Last edited by OpusTheFowl on Sun 27 May 2012 03:40, edited 1 time in total.
Keep it civil


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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012 16:49 
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Guggy wrote:
ikalugin wrote:
Guggy wrote:
just ignore ikalugin's posts. I beg you.

Do you have valid arguments on the matter?


Do you?

I do, and I can give you several research papers on the matter if you want me to.

If you wish to argue for NATO air superiority within the time period I would gladly invite you to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012 16:50 
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Guggy wrote:
ikalugin wrote:
Guggy wrote:
just ignore ikalugin's posts. I beg you.

Do you have valid arguments on the matter?


Do you? Or do you just have aspergers?

,,,you seem to have a poor grasp as to what Asperger's Syndrome actually is.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012 16:58 
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ikalugin wrote:
If you wish to argue for NATO air superiority within the time period I would gladly invite you to do so.


I never argued air superiority on either side, because I dont think either side would have it. I've stated my opinion on multiple topics that neither side would win a conventional war before it goes nuclear, and any air involvement wouldnt be a huge factor due to 1985-era aircraft not having the systems modern aircraft have.

Every time someone makes a post hinting that NATO may have an advantage you're quick to rush in with "NOPE NOPE WP UBER ALLES" and its gotten beyond tedious. You then link reports in Russian that generally DONT support what you said, but just enough to continue arguing. You cherry pick facts and dismiss most any source that disagrees with you as having no credibility.

Most recent example is that thread in Offtopic about War Movies of all things. Multiple mods have noticed it even, judging by their participation in that topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012 16:59 
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Xeno426 wrote:
,,,you seem to have a poor grasp as to what Asperger's Syndrome actually is.


"Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger's syndrome or Asperger disorder, is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests."

Emphasis on the second half of the description.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012 17:28 
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Guggy wrote:
Xeno426 wrote:
,,,you seem to have a poor grasp as to what Asperger's Syndrome actually is.


"Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger's syndrome or Asperger disorder, is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests."

Emphasis on the second half of the description.

Using wikipedia as your primary source when accusing the exponential of being mentally challenged? Somehow I find this ironic.


Guggy wrote:
ikalugin wrote:
If you wish to argue for NATO air superiority within the time period I would gladly invite you to do so.


I never argued air superiority on either side, because I dont think either side would have it. I've stated my opinion on multiple topics that neither side would win a conventional war before it goes nuclear, and any air involvement wouldnt be a huge factor due to 1985-era aircraft not having the systems modern aircraft have.

Every time someone makes a post hinting that NATO may have an advantage you're quick to rush in with "NOPE NOPE WP UBER ALLES" and its gotten beyond tedious. You then link reports in Russian that generally DONT support what you said, but just enough to continue arguing. You cherry pick facts and dismiss most any source that disagrees with you as having no credibility.

Most recent example is that thread in Offtopic about War Movies of all things. Multiple mods have noticed it even, judging by their participation in that topic.

Many military theorists, namely the office of soviet studies, disagree with you. The war would have been decisive and short due to many failings of NATO strategic planning.

Which systems do you refer to? 4th generation AAM? They were present on the MiG29A/Su27S in the form of R73 and R27 families, but yes NATO did not field them until after the cold war (AIM9X is a rather recent system). Helmet mounted sights, IRST, PAR radar? They were also present on various cold war aircraft such as MiG29/31/Su27. Full network centric datalink (not fielded by NATO until 2000s)? It was fielded as early as 1982 on the soviet side, specifically MiG31/29/Su27 aircraft.
So in general soviets did posses what you call "modern" systems as far as 1980s, which is completely consistent with the game timeline.

"You then link reports in Russian that generally DONT support what you said, but just enough to continue arguing. You cherry pick facts and dismiss most any source that disagrees with you as having no credibility. "
Can you please provide an example of such fallacy? I would be glad to conduct polite, educated discussion where possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012 17:35 
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Joined: Tue 13 Mar 2012 20:27
Posts: 1304
Guggy wrote:
Xeno426 wrote:
,,,you seem to have a poor grasp as to what Asperger's Syndrome actually is.


"Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger's syndrome or Asperger disorder, is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests."

Emphasis on the second half of the description.

Quoting the textbook entry is not the same as understanding what it is, or even being able to properly recognize it. This is why people that try to self-diagnose themselves with a disease aren't seen as a terribly reliable source of diagnosis.

After all, "restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests" is also shared with OCD.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012 18:03 
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Joined: Sun 18 Mar 2012 22:27
Posts: 16
ikalugin wrote:
ajac wrote:
I wonder what the chances that WP would have airsuppority. I am thinking low. NATO forces are trained better better aircraft and larger number of better aircraft. Granted the su-27 and mig 29 are awesome but going up against the large number of nato aircraft would make ait an interesting battle. Now I want to play a game that throws WP and NATO airforces together. Who would win? Id love to see some ideas on this.

NATO pilots had similar amount of useful training, as WP pilots had their training facilities nearby to their airfields.

WP had comparable aircraft for their role - MiG23MLD is comparable to F15C on the short range operations, Su27S/MiG29A in their 1985/1987 vintage were vastly superior to the F15C as they had better weapons (R73), better sensors (IRST), better avionics (helmet mounted sights, infra flight network centric datalink). Hence NATO did not have an advantage in equipment.

If we look into the ground attack aircraft NATO has not technological advantage here, with MiG27K and Su17M3 aircraft, they both were capable of using a variety of PGM type weapons.

They were also vastly outnumbered by the WP aircraft - one of the reasons why USA would strive for F15C+AMRAAM system, stealth force multiplier, but none were fielded in the time period.

In addition to this WP had a massive advantage in the anti air systems until the 1987, as they have had large amounts of modern, mobile systems such as Buk, and the advantage on the lower level is even larger.
Also WP had more of TBM type weapons, which NATO had no defense against. Those would have been used on airfields and other such important targets as part of the combined arms anti air operation.

Thus, especially with WP first strike up to 1987 WP would be capable of at-least denying the air to the NATO if not decisively taking control of it.


eh going by the Middle eastern conflicts I am not to sure on this one. With the WP fielding alot of Vietnam and even Korean war area planes when compared to modern aircraft and still lacking the basic knowledge of AWACS and such I am really not sure . but one thing about this game I am noticing is it has a HEAVY love for the WP.


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