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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr 2012 11:07 
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Lieutenant Colonel
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I don't want to go back on this debate...

But i just want to let you know that during the 75/85 era, all our new powerfull and extremy expensive bomb where NOT designed. Jstars and others flying Pigs where develloped and produce in the late 80.

So DURING THE 75/85 ERA, they would have not air attack on the operationnal scale of Wargame...

Here is a REAL joke that was waving around Pentagon during this Era.

"It's 2 Soviets general who meet on their tanks on the Champs-Elysées in Paris.

-Hey, finally who had the air domination?
-I have no idea. "

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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr 2012 11:11 
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Joined: Fri 9 Mar 2012 21:37
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mordoror wrote:
One solution would be a single call of planes i.e calling planes to strike a given area on the map and leave away
In this case that would be an interesting feature because it would promote some realistic operational capabilities
* like a CAS strike on a massed (spammed) armor rush (yes in reality nobody is concentrating armor in mass because of air strike risk)
* like a CAS strike on an arty position
* like an AA flight vs Helo spams

I think that it would help reducing rush/spams greatly especially if single use feature (forbidding aircrafts spams on its own)

+1


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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr 2012 14:53 
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Joined: Thu 1 Mar 2012 02:14
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derpcannon BG wrote:
mordoror wrote:
One solution would be a single call of planes i.e calling planes to strike a given area on the map and leave away
In this case that would be an interesting feature because it would promote some realistic operational capabilities
* like a CAS strike on a massed (spammed) armor rush (yes in reality nobody is concentrating armor in mass because of air strike risk)
* like a CAS strike on an arty position
* like an AA flight vs Helo spams

I think that it would help reducing rush/spams greatly especially if single use feature (forbidding aircrafts spams on its own)

+1


No. Air strikes from the blue would not be good for this game. A CAS strike would wipe out 4-8 units at best with 1980s equipment. The exception being Napalm into forests and carpet bombing...

AA Jets would rarely if ever engage helicopters near the ground - that is why helicopters fly nap of the Earth... and going near the ground to shoot down a helicopter, while doable, is not necessary or desirable (small arms fire, high speeds + trees, MANPADs...etc...)

CAS on Arty/Units would be fine if guided by a recon / forward air infantry/vehicle unit.... but a "click air strike button, click on map, receive explosions." is not needed in this game. Without ground information guiding in an airplane... you would have a hard time finding targets as a pilot unless you are lucky and find an obvious soviet armor colomn out in the middle of a field - and without any ground recon you go in hoping to god they don't have functional anti air...

In short. No to magic air strikes. Yes to guided airstrikes from special units. Airstrikes should cost points and STILL require a special unit to have eyes-on. Period. Any other way would break the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr 2012 17:48 
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Joined: Sun 4 Mar 2012 12:43
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DeuZerre wrote:
The idea of "striking wherever you want without any possible counter".

This game is made so everything can be countered.


except french infantry and flame tanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr 2012 17:51 
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Joined: Fri 9 Mar 2012 14:03
Posts: 132
And if game had aircraft then people would be asking why there aren't any ships.


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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr 2012 17:59 
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feeblezak wrote:
DeuZerre wrote:
The idea of "striking wherever you want without any possible counter".

This game is made so everything can be countered.


except french infantry and flame tanks.


>French Infantry
Flame Tanks

>Flame Tanks
Mortars or a very spread out bum rush with 8+ infantry. Preferably both.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr 2012 20:44 
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Joined: Sun 26 Feb 2012 14:40
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Commissar Fuklaw wrote:
No. Air strikes from the blue would not be good for this game. A CAS strike would wipe out 4-8 units at best with 1980s equipment. The exception being Napalm into forests and carpet bombing...

AA Jets would rarely if ever engage helicopters near the ground - that is why helicopters fly nap of the Earth... and going near the ground to shoot down a helicopter, while doable, is not necessary or desirable (small arms fire, high speeds + trees, MANPADs...etc...)

CAS on Arty/Units would be fine if guided by a recon / forward air infantry/vehicle unit.... but a "click air strike button, click on map, receive explosions." is not needed in this game. Without ground information guiding in an airplane... you would have a hard time finding targets as a pilot unless you are lucky and find an obvious soviet armor colomn out in the middle of a field - and without any ground recon you go in hoping to god they don't have functional anti air...

In short. No to magic air strikes. Yes to guided airstrikes from special units. Airstrikes should cost points and STILL require a special unit to have eyes-on. Period. Any other way would break the game.


Hum never suggested air strikes out of the blue
Of course you'll need forward air controlers
And no a CAS in 80 is not able to destroy 4-8 units (well depending in fact what strike and what units)
Remember that in 80s most aircraft weapons were dumb 250 and 500 lbs gravity bombs and rockets, more rarely cluster canisters and even more rarely TV guided air land missiles. Smart bombs were not efficient enough to be used as today to kill a single vehicle.
So it was basically a drop and fly away
A typical twin F4 or Su22 flight would be 4t or 8t ordnance drop (= 2 smerch) for example so i don't see how it would be game breaking as it should be single use feature (on the contrary to the now in game MLRS)
Of course clusters ammos would be more deadly to soft or semi hard skin vehicles
And napalm would be more deadly to infantry

Ah and i disagree with your description of AA jets
Cold war jets were intended to fly low (to avoid theatre SAM); It was the doctrine back in the days (doctrine that was changed after GW1, Bosnia and Kosovo due to dense grid of AAA and manpads). So they were able and supposed to engage helos by missiles (Sidewinders, Sparrows) and guns. Again it was the doctrine back during cold war.


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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr 2012 21:16 
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Joined: Sat 17 Mar 2012 16:36
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Update your network drivers, seems to have worked for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr 2012 21:23 
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Joined: Sun 11 Mar 2012 18:57
Posts: 289
Location: Canada
the_Monk wrote:


I honestly think you don't get it.

It is not just a question of hey "let's add planes, make the maps bigger and give AA longer range".........sigh

Planes would fly over so fast the AA tracking/targeting and firing speeds would also have to be increased which (along with their now longer range) would mean they would OWN all helos anywhere on the map so then helo's would have to be buffed in order to able to deal with AA better (ie be more manouverable) which would make them OP against other units ETC> ETC> ETC>

You don't just bloody well decide to add something and then it's like......."oh here it is......everything is good". :?


As it stands. EACH UNIT TYPE has a definitive REASON as to why it is included in the game (not every varient makes sense other than for completeness) and EACH UNIT TYPE is damn well balanced at the moment. Ranges, fire-rate, movement have all been balanced by the devs........you think that happened overnight?

REALISM and staying true to potential scenarios has been largely (ie. flame units) compromised in favour of BALANCE and overall gameplay. The devs were making a game afterall.......a game which needed balance and fun. Thankfully it has both.

Here's hoping the idea for planes and other such things never gets past this thread..... ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Why no planes?
PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr 2012 21:26 
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Command Sergeant Major
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Joined: Tue 20 Mar 2012 11:55
Posts: 325
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I still don't get it how we're supposed to have low flying jets simply ignoring AA. It's just silly.
Sure you may be flying low and avoiding the major SAM sites, but when a BUK and a couple of Tunguskas spot you it's rapy-rapy time. It was ridiculous how in for example WiC you could call in invincible airstrikes, even when the area was swarmed with AA units. No pilot with a sense of self preservation would go down there.

Jets could be somewhat acceptable if they could be shot down trying to sortie their target. They would also need to cost a hefty number of command points. It would basically be an expensive precision weapon. That said I can't see much good uses for one, as we already have artillery that can do pretty much the same and more.

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